The God of Christianity is a God of Contradiction.
This God makes killing sinners The Law (Lv 20:10). Then contradicts himself by chastising the Law-abiding and pardoning the Lawless (Jn 8:1-1). To add to the confusion, despite breaking his own Law, he says The Law is to remain in effect unto the end of time (Mt 5:17-20). Huh?
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37 comments:
I am not sure I understand what you are trying communicate in the first sentence. Would you mind rephrasing?
Sorry about the poor wording. Hope this is clearer. I am very interested to hear your perspective.
Also, why do you think the Israelites stopped stoning people? I have my idea and have traded a couple emails with a rabbi at askarabbi.com but have not gotten a good answer yet.
It seemed like in the bible, everybody was pretty much a target except the Israelites. They could kill at will. Massive favoritism in the bible. I'm sure the Egyptian babies that were murdered were "good people"; but they got slaughtered anyway. It is so obvious to me that the writers of the bible were not evolved human beings. Life seemed to mean very little to them.
I, on the other hand, believe life to be precious (and not only when life is still in the womb, like many christians I know). Because I value life so highly, I find the stories in the bible abhorant. There is so much unnecessary violence and fear. If the writers of the bible were truly spiritual men from god, they would have spoken about unity, how precious life is, respect for our fellow man, cooperation, kindness. Instead, we get the horror show of the old and the new testaments.
About god punishing "good" people, I remember the days of being afraid that if life was going too well, I would be tested by god, like Job. Or that I would be sent to a country where I did not want to go, to be a missionary to the heathen! I never felt safe; even my thoughts were not my own since God heard everything. Constant guilt and fear. Then there was all that propoganda about christians being persecuted; I really believed that too. (Now I see that it is usually christians who are the persecutors, not the persecutees!)
I have a hard time understanding why people would embrace the christian god. I can see why people want some kind of comfort about death and being separated from loved ones. But why, then, create a god who will send most of his "precious creation" in the pits of hell? Why not adopt a spirituality such as Aboriginal spirituality, where all people and animals, after death, go to a wonderful place?? And what about when christians have doubts; does this doubt create some question in their mind about whether they really will go to heaven? (Since the unforgiveable sin is to not believe). If christianity is supposed to give comfort to people, in my view it fails miserably. So where's the appeal? Is it vengence? Is it an attractive belief system for those who want to see their neighbors burn in eternal torment?
On the theme of the immorality of the bible, here are 10 commandments of the "Ethical Atheist") (on ethicalatheist.com). Imagine how much better a place we would be if we had followed these commandments instead of Moses' commandments???
1. Thou SHALT NOT believe all thou art told. (back to top)
Humans are generally very gullible. We believe are sorts of false statements, stories, reasoning, etc. We even continue to believe falsehoods after they have been proven untrue. History is full of amazing hoaxes often supported by religion and the teachings of the Church (see Science, Truth and the Church) or by others seeking power, popularity or fortune. We have been told the Earth was flat and has four corners which, if not careful, we may fall off. We have been told that the Earth is the center of the Universe. We have been told that sky if a fixed, firm structure to which the sun, moon and stars are affixed. We have been told that personalities and future events are predictable using astrology, card reading, crystal balls and palm reading. We have been told of prophecies by Nostradamas. We have been told of speaking with the dead, the dead rising, life after death, reincarnation and bending spoons, to name only a few. We must be more skeptical in what we are told, what we read and what we are exposed to through the various forms of broadcast media. When exposed to something new, do NOT accept what you hear without facts to support it. There are other agendas at work in your deception. You must always be on guard to protect yourself and your knowledge.
2. Thou SHALT seek knowledge and truth constantly. (back to top)
There are many adverse factors making it difficult for us to obtain knowledge and the truth. There is often no motivating factor driving others to present you with fair, factual, scientific truths. By weaving a complex web of lies, religions are able to control people and remain in power. Governments may hide facts and events for fear of scaring the public. There are more advertising dollars and higher ratings in broadcasting claims of communicating with the dead than in Kepler's Laws of Planetary Motion. Therefore, we must take an active role in our own education and constantly seek the truth. It isn't always obvious and is often very difficult to obtain. Thou SHALT make time to read non-fiction. Thou SHALT make time to view educational programs. Thou SHALT spend as much time in the library as you do in the mall or watching television.
3. Thou SHALT educate thy fellow man in the Laws of Science. (back to top)
People are generally lazy and hold onto currently held false beliefs. This condition is not acceptable to the ethical atheist. It is not good enough to sit comfortably with your knowledge of the Universe and look in pity at those who are still governed by lies, mythology and sensationalism. Scientific education is the only way to prevail. Only by increasing the comprehension of scientific truths can we hope to continue our progress past the Dark Ages. Only if the world contains more educated people can we hope to not have setbacks. Thou SHALT NOT sit silent and be a closet atheist. Thou SHALT enlighten thy neighbor.
4. Thou SHALT NOT forget the atrocities committed in the name of god. (back to top)
Many people have limited knowledge, or none at all, of the atrocities committed during the Inquisition, the Crusades, etc. by the Church and in the name of religion. Christians are not unique in their cruelty. For example, Muslim civilizations often imprison, torture or kill those attempting to convert their citizens to Christianity. (See Atrocities in the Name of Religion - coming soon...) Few are even remotely aware of these atrocities or think, "Oh, that was a long time ago and could never happen again". However, it hasn't been that long ago and is still occurring today in countries like Bosnia, Rwanda, Burundi, Somalia, Israel, Tibet and Afghanistan. Thou SHALT fear a repeat of history.
5. Thou SHALT leave valuable contributions for future generations. (back to top)
The nature of knowledge gain is that new truths are most often found by building upon known facts. If every generation were required to start fresh in its quest for knowledge, our progress would be severely impacted. Our children will not have to go back and prove that the earth is not flat. They will not have to rediscover the atom. It is important that our generation, and all those that follow, leave scientific knowledge and resources for our offspring to build upon. Write a book. Publish an article. Develop a web site. Leave money to organizations that further science and education.
6. Thou SHALT live in peace with thy fellow man. (back to top)
This should not need stating, but murders, torture, wars and brutality are ever present in all civilizations on earth and have been for all of recorded history. Most of the large scale wars, as well as suicide bombers, are driven by religious beliefs and the belief in an afterlife. Even though many religions claim to be against killing, they promote that killing for god is divine and will ensure a special status in the afterlife. If we didn't have these widespread mythological beliefs, there would likely be a massive decrease in the killings.
7. Thou SHALT live this one life thou hast to its fullest. (back to top)
We do not believe in an afterlife nor that we will be reincarnated to live again in another form. It is, therefore, imperative that we live this one life we have to its fullest. We should not live in a puritanical way, starving ourselves of pleasures, in hopes that it somehow makes us better or that we will be judged more favorably in our "next life". However, in living our lives to the fullest, we must always be conscious of our actions to ensure that they do not have adverse effects on our fellow man.
8. Thou SHALT follow a Personal Code of Ethics. (back to top)
Everyone should have their own personal code of ethics that drives their behavior. What this contains is an individual undertaking, but current laws are a good starting point. Many of the commandments of the Bible can be summarized by this commandment. For example, it should be self-evident that murder, lying and stealing should be avoided and honoring your mother and father are necessary, assuming of course that they are worthy of this respect (e.g. they are not beating/raping you or otherwise abusing you). In general, a personal code of ethics would not cause harm to others, would be anchored in truth and would strive to make society a better place.
9. Thou SHALT maintain a strict separation between Church and State. (back to top)
It is extremely dangerous to mix the mind controlling, fear generating, mythological beliefs of religion with the governing aspects and power of the state. History is full of examples. Many who founded the United States knew this and were willing to die to escape the horrors of Europe. We know that freedom can be measured by the separation of church and state.
10. Thou SHALT support those who follow these commandments. (back to top)
Get involved! Our progress in the last 250 years has been ard fought. Do not sit idle and let us suffer setbacks. Religious conservatives are highly organized and well funded. They continue to spread lies. They are trying to rid our schools of teaching evolution. They are infiltrating government. They are targeting our children's young, impressionable minds. We must support those who follow these commandments in every way possible. Support scientific and atheist organizations by submitting writings, donating money, etc. (donations are often tax deductible). Purchase books and subscribe to magazines. Attend seminars. All of these provide backing and support to continue valuable efforts. Worthy organizations include (but are not limited to): Americans United for Separation of Church and State, American Atheists, CSICOP - The Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal and the Skeptical Inquirer Magazine, The Skeptic's Annotated Bible, The Center for Inquiry, EvolveFish, Online Library of Literature, your local library, etc. (For more, see Links of the Ethical Atheist.)
2 Comments:
1. The Bible, like other books, must be read in context, which you repeatedly fail to do.
- "This God makes killing sinners The Law". In context, you are referring to a theocratic state in which God imposes a system of justice. Do you believe in any justice for humanity? Are you confusing the penology of the law with the morality behind it? The Law of this theocratic state is historically differentiated into three sections. The civil, the ceremonial, and the moral. Under the theocracy, all three were applicable. However, as one reads Scripture in context, the civil expires, the ceremonial is abrogated through the perfect sacrifice of Christ and the moral remains. So your third premise is true. The moral remains to the end of time. The penology changes along with the unique contextual theocracy that you were referring to.
Yet, despite your sin and my sin, that is apparent because of the enduring moral law, God shows grace, by "pardoning the disobedient" through faith in Christ's righteousness.
2. Why is it ok of you?: You condemn the Bible, improperly, despite your inconsistencies. You place your faith in the value/beauty of humanity, yet human beings are responsible for far greater atrocities than those you've sighted from the Bible. (As in your clip on human monkeys/apes) You are a god of contradiction, even when read in context. Monkeys are beautiful and evil? Huh?
Amen to that sister!!!!!
Janet,
If everyone would follow the 10 commandments you listed the world would be a much better place.
Order/Peace - you say: "The civil, the ceremonial, and the moral. Under the theocracy, all three were applicable. However, as one reads Scripture in context, the civil expires, the ceremonial is abrogated through the perfect sacrifice of Christ and the moral remains". I would like to ask you a few questions about this.
First of all, the "theocracy" all three were applicable, but now only the "moral" remains. And this is because of the "perfect sacrifice" of Jesus Christ.
So you are saying that for 13.7 billion years, humankind had to live in the torment and violence of the old testament. And only 2000 years ago, Jesus came to earth to save mankind from himself. So everyone born after this is part of the "moral" part of the story, because they happened to be fortunate enough to be born after christ! And this must have been god's perfect, plan, right? That billions of people would live in misery and violence, and only billions of years later would he decide that something must be done about man's sin!
So then comes Jesus and the "perfect sacrifice". I find it hard to accept that an evolved human being could call torture and cruel death "perfect" in any way. As most people already know, the whole concept of shedding blood to buy forgiveness is pagan in origin. Evolved people now realize that nobody has to bleed for life to be good! We are not born perfect; why must we be? Why can we not be fully human; to rise to our potential as much as we can? Who says we must be "perfect" and "forgiven" to enter heaven? And why do you believe this?
Another thing. I do not know if you are a "young-earth creationist". If you are, then clearly you take the bible at its word no matter how ridiculous or how at odds with science. If you are not a "young-earth creationist", then you must know that the story of adam and eve is not literally true because we know that the earth is much, much older than that. If the adam and eve story is not true, then they did not sin in the garden of eden. If there was no fall from grace (no original sin), there was no need for a saviour. And no need for Jesus to be tortured to death for our "sins". Why can you not accept that we are not wicked sinners, but a combination of greatness and evil within ourselves?
I can say, as a former christian, that I rejoice in my new-found clarity and freedom. It is difficult for me to talk about these issues that are still so painful for me. But I think they must be said.
Order/Peace, You speak like your a lawyer for "God". My question is, Are you 100% sure there's an afterlife AND a God????
Are you certain when you die, That you know what will happen??
hey Peace,
Easy there tiger. No need to attack me. I would like to keep the focus on the original thought before moving on to other topics. Is that o.k.? I would be happy to discuss anything but things get a little crazy if we don’t stay on topic.
You obviously have studied and I am looking forward to learning from you. You say “However, as one reads Scripture in context, the civil expires, the ceremonial is abrogated through the perfect sacrifice of Christ and the moral remains. ”
Can you go into more detail here to make it easier for a knucklehead like me to follow?
Brian, thanks for the support! Others can probably add to the 10 commandments here; there are many more that could help make the world better. Few of them are actually in the biblical 10 commandments, in my view.
my response is a response to Ms. Greene's.... i am a little confused at the intense criticism of the early israelites...if you look at these early books as literature, and if you study the culture and the societies of this particular generation, it was all about war and survival--like all of primitive man. the ancient israelites and prophets were concerned about those tribes who worshipped things and money and excess and had no regard for humanity...they did not value life, the poor, the widow or the orphan. in the the ancient israelites' minds, when bad things happened to those tribes, they believed it to be God's punishment because that is all they knew. we know now that we live in a physical world and that we are a product of the natural world and when we suffer it is not not some sort of punishment from the creator. however, they had a great insight in to humanity. when people of any culture forget about the poor and the widow and dance around golden calves (metaphor for money,) then their societies fail. this is great prophecy for all of mankind. we are experiencing in our own country, what happened to rome, greece and now the U-S. we have failed to honor what the great prophets have warned us about. we are dancing around the golden calf--MONEY. this is not God's punishment, but the law of nature and of humanity. we fail when we don't value one another or the planet. the ancient israelites valued the earth and it was the law to take care of the earth and all its inhabitants. this is one collection of one culture that we can learn from. i think perhaps we are missing the boat here, when we don't look at these ancient stories in the right light. the american indians had some pretty wild practices, engaged in warfare among one another, but each tribe had valuable lessons about the earth and its inhabitants. we should respect all religions and all faiths as a path to truth and what we know to be truth at our particular time in humanity.
Barb, I will let Janet respond to your comments since you addressed them to her but had to comment about your last sentence. What? Why should I respect something I do not think is true, and why should I respect something that I think is harmful in myriad ways?
Just because it is labeled religion?
because that is where we start the path to peace...the peace that passes all understanding. in my journey, i have reached that path and that peace. if we do not start that path to peace, then what is the point of existence? i completely respect someone who does or does not believe in anything. we can never start the process of healing this world if we do not respect and find something good in all of us.
Barb, I share your passion for wanting peace. That is why I attack religion. Religions divide people which leads away from peace.
I want to make clear that I am talking about religion, not people. I agree that we need to respect people no matter what they believe as we also should respect life no matter what form it takes. You want peace and a world with less suffering? Then not eating animals is a first step toward that world.
I cannot believe you respect a religion that genitally mutilates young girls or a religion that buries children alive as a sacrifice to their gods or a religion that claims you will be tortured for all eternity starting in a few decades if not much sooner. How can we hope for peace when we “respect” wildly contradictory and harmful understandings of reality?
Again, an individual’s right to think whatever they want should be respected but not necessarily the thoughts themselves.
Barb, I agree with most of what you said. Wholeheartedly. Such as taking care of our planet. As for taking things out of context, I get that response a lot. How do you determine what is literal and what is not? I would like to answer directly your question about the Israelites in the old testament. I did not mean to be hard on them; I was hard on the "god" that was constantly getting them to kill other tribes, or god himself killing other people on their behalf. In the old testament, it reads like other peoples' lives have no value. I have a problem with favoritism and gratuitous violence.
I would also like to add to John's comment that I do not see religion as the way to peace or a higher understanding of ourselves or our world. I see religion as generally instigating violence (you may say this is a mis-use of religion, but why is it so very, very rampant???) and I also see religion as a BARRIER to progress based on the fact that in most religious circles we are most definitely not encouraged to question anything too much. Everyone uses the same keywords and nods along, never having thought about what the words really mean. To me, religion is non-sensical and harmful. I do not see it as the path to freedom or joy.
Please forgive me if my previous post came across as polemical. That certainly was not my intent. As a matter of fact, that was my first ever post on a blog, so I'm new to this. However, I'm sure you can appreciate that calling God a contradiction isn't exactly a neutral statement.
My comments seek to address your original thought, namely your thought that "God is a contradiction." My point speaks directly to this. First, God is not a contradiction when you read the Bible in context. And secondly, you contradict yourself in a similar fashion to what you "accuse" God of. So why is it bad if God does it and ok when you do it? Its not a personal question but rather one of logic and methodology.
Greene - I would be the first to admit that I'm not scientist, so please be patient with me here. But, IF you assume that the world is 13.7 billion years old, that doesn't necessarily mean human beings have existed during that time. I am very willing to concede an old earth. I even think the bible allows it and somewhat demands it.
From what I've read, the current fossil records indicate that "man" as we know him today is only about 100 thousand years old NOT 13.7 billion. There's no scientific reason NOT to believe that God created the earth, and even a historical Adam even with our most current scientific discoveries. In other words, even under the auspices of theistic evolution, there two are not mutually exclusive.
In other words, based on the issues you've raised, I can be a old earth, old man, theistic evolutionary Christian and you and I would be in agreement on most things - except where we place our faith.
But my question is why are you so willing to place your faith in science, which isn't exactly uniform in its position, and so unwilling to place faith in God?
Sorry, Order/Peace, gonna butt in here on your conversation with John. I hear so much about "context" from christians, but I rarely get an answer as to what the context IS. For example, can you put condoning of slavery and giving daughters to be raped in context for me? What context makes this anything less than the writings of unevolved men?
Sorry, meant to say "anything MORE" than the ramblings of unevolved men.
green--just so i know, from what brand of christianity were you raised? what caused the rift--sudden or gradual? any children?
i've never been one to look at the old testament or new testament in any literal realm. MAN wrote it and he is constantly trying to figure the natural world out. all mankind from all cultures have some sort of inner desire that fuels them. the old testament is about the culture of the times in the middle east...man simply wrote down what he thought. it appears that the only tribe you think during that time was violent is the israelites. the romans, philistines, the greeks--all of them warriors out to enslave and conquer the hebrew--extremely cruel and violent. they were jealous of their god yahweh because he got more attention than the human cruel dictators...their religions horrible and brutal.
why the focus on the jews. it is against judaism to prosthelytize...christians and muslims do. jews only fought in the bible to defend themselves...they did not conquer other lands or people. from an earlier comment, i tried to explain why they thought god was punishing them. ask any jew or rabbi today and they do not believe that. this is ancient text plus the christian bible is much more different in translation than the torah. the romans changed it all up when the catholic church put it together. i think you would have some insight if you read the torah or read jewish history...instead of the christian bible. in fact, the messiah is not even predicted in the torah as he is in the old testament king james bible. it was manufactured when the whole king james bible was put together. most christians don't even know this. educated ministers with PH D's do and they preach it. ever been in a church or synagogue with educated leaders? quite different than southern baptists...which i was raised.
Order/Peace, Why is it then that the bible shows mankind to be around 6,000 years old. With the creation of Adam and Eve. This is where christians see a genealogy line with This one begat this one, This begat this one, ETC.
When about 2000 years (Only 4000 years ago) later the great flood happened in the bible and all man was killed but Noah and his three sons and their wives. So THEY repopulated the earth through incest?????
This also raises the question what type of time line are they going on when persons in the bible lived to be 700 years old. Was this 1,000's of years like we view a 365 day calender year OR was their year much shorter??? If in point that is the case, Then all man kind from Adam And Eve a much shorter period of time THEN 6,000 years ago.
When we have scientific proof over and over that mankind is older than 6,000 years old. In the 90's they found a primitive man dead, frozen in ice and science dated him to being about 15,000 years old.
How is he and other accounts possible if Adam and Eve were the first to be created 6,000 years ago? Is science lying?
Order/Peace, I see you are a very intelligent person by te way you respond. I myself can not speak the language you do, But I try to understand most of it. I have a question for you.
Why is it that Christians use the word "Context" when talking about the bible? Why is it some things in the bible can be taken as they are written, But other things Christians will say "You are taking it out of Context".
For example: Murder, Rape, Incest, Killing of children, Slavery, Women looked at as second class, Killing of thousands of people, ETC. ETC.
How is this suppose to be meant to keep in Context?????? What is God wanting me to know with these all inspiring scriptures????
Barb,
In the south there are some educated preachers. Look at Eddie Long or Creflo A. Dollar. Both mega preachers MAKING mega Millions off people. They hold PH.D's in theology. Yet at any time you will hear them say "The womens movement in the 1970's was the work of the devil". I actually heard those words from Creflo A. Dollar (Great name by the way) a week ago. These are educated men.
Also many christians don't want to add the other books in the bible, Like the lost books of Enoch discovered in Ethopia. The churches tried to burn all the copies. It was to much of a reach for Christians to believe in fallen angels, The impregnation of women by these angels, ETC. ETC.
Man in the churches have tried to pick what they want people to know. During the translation of the king james bible in 1683 (I think) there was some words that were introduced for the first time. This shows the power man has always seeked. To have everyone "Believe" what they are writing down.
That is power, That man has abused.
Barb, again i will let janet respond but wanted to comment on one point you made “ jews only fought in the bible to defend themselves...they did not conquer other lands or people.”
Not to be a jerk, but have you read the Old Testament? Joshua and Moses are some of the first religious terrorists and their aim was complete eradication of people in order to steal land. they committed genocide in the name of Yahweh. Story after story is about the israelites attacking killing, stealing and enslaving. The “holy” city of Jerusalem only became “holy” after David and his men, seething with hate, attacked it and killed all the people that lived there.
Now we do agree that these are but stories of men and have nothing to do with a god. And most all of it is likely myth. I too recognize the Israelites were not alone in their barbarity but this is a blog about the bible so it is not my focus to blast other ancient people.
Hi Barb - to clarify again, I am not picking on the Jewish people of the old testament. I do not like the FAVORITISM by god. I know that other tribes of the era would extremely violent. I just don't think a loving god would demonize certain groups as not being worthy of life. I hear that you are not a bible literalist; and I realize you are absolutely right that the old testament of the christian bible does not represent the beliefs of Jewish people. But that is what I AM talking about; christianity and the christian bible. The unpredictability, anger, jealousy and murder-madness is immoral to me. I think you and I are in agreement there. I'm not certain what your beliefs are; certainly you are not a "typical christian" in your views. I would like to hear more about that.
As for me, my father was an evangelical pastor and pretty much a bible literalist. If you watch the Simpsons (Matt Groening is actually my cousin 4th removed or something), think combination of Flanders & Lovejoy, only far more conservative (ie no dancing, no drinking, no sex before marriage, homosexuality is an abomination, etc.) I was the "black sheep" of the family and systematically broke most of the rules. Before that, however, I tried very, very hard to be a good christian. I went forward on alter calls; prayed thousands of times for Jesus to come into my heart and take away all the bad stuff. I never felt assured that I was heard, or that anything changed. So I had tremendous guilt when I broke the rules, but figured that other people "got it" I just couldn't. I could not feel love for God or Jesus; I felt nothing at all toward them. Then I felt guilty about that. To try to avoid the fear and pain of this, I avoided the entire subject of spirituality from age 18 to 32. I would have discussions with my 2 sisters over that period also (they were both christian for years, as adults, and in their 40's and 50's became atheist also) At that time, I was fortunate enough to become close to an Aboriginal Elder who showed me that spirituality had nothing to do with a judgmental god. She taught me to let go of burdens, to "feel my feelings", etc. I had spent my entire life being very numb and almost dissociated. At age 32 (I'm 44 now) I started on a journey that became somewhat obsessive. I read everything I could get my hands on, became obsessed with theology and finding truth. I'm still that way. I went through a great deal of agony finding out that all the pain I went through as a child was for nothing; what I had been taught was largely lies that almost destroyed me. I won't go into all the things I went through as an adult, but suffice to say I made my life extremely difficult and painful. I don't know exactly when it happened, but within the last 5 years I suddenly KNEW that christianity was immoral for me; that it had damaged me terribly but that healing was possible.
You also asked about children; I had a wonderful son, who is now 22 years old. I was a very confused person when I raised him, but I certainly did not raise him to believe in christianity. I did not even take him to church. He is far more "together" than I am; he is stronger, more confident, extremely empathic and moral. I had to work hard to become those things. I just knew I loved my son; otherwise, I was pretty clueless as a mother. I just knew that I was not going to put the pain that I experienced as a child onto my son.
Bottom line - On the evidence that I know of, I feel it is unlikely that there is any kind of conscious god, but I am open to evidence. Right now, I believe in teh connectedness of all living things; we are all made of energy and I think we are far more connected than we know. From this foundation, I believe in loving others (it is like loving yourself) and creating peace and unity around me. Even though I realize I am quite divisive on this blog! lol!
Danzig - like I said, the Bible allows room for an older age of man. From a Biblical perspective, much of this is dependent upon whether or not you think "creation" took place in 6 literal 24 hour days, which I do not hold to. If God created the sun, moon and stars on the 4th day, and that is what defines a 24 hour period of time, how long were the previous days... lots of room for discussion, yet I don't have to deny the basic tenets of orthodoxy - God created ex nihilo, historical Adam...
In addition, the genealogies cannot be read in direct succession to one another. One example of a problem in doing so would be that Methuselah would have died in the flood... this obviously couldn't be the case. There are other examples where in one account we read that so and so begot so and so, and in another book of the Bible we read there were others between them. The genealogies were not in direct succession. SO - I can hold to all the tenets of orthodoxy, and still be in agreement with the majority of the realm of science, however I do so from a theistic position rather than from an anthropocentric one.
Danzig - I am certain that there is an afterlife AND a GOD. I am certain in what will happen when I die as well.
I am certain, similar to you, except you place your faith in the claims of science, and biased fact and perceived reality whereas I place faith in a triune, loving, merciful, compassionate, gracious God.
Danzig, Evans, Greene - again forgive me if I have been too divisive, or have offended in any way. I don't have the luxury (not saying that you do) of much time to think through my comments. I am thoroughly enjoying the conversation, and do not seek to offend.
Order/Peace, How are you sure of an afterlife???
Is there any proof, Or are you going on faith??
Order,
No offense taken by me. I think it silly to get offended by anything. We all get a little combative at times, as we should when it is called for. I think it important that we all remember it is not people themselves any of us are finding fault with but differing ideas. Ideas can change and the point of all this is to learn from each other and better empathize with each other. Clarity, brevity and an absence of emotion are all good things to remember when we are in discussions like these.
Look forward to hearing more of your perspective.
Danzig - Yes, I'm not afraid to admit that I'm going on reasonable faith. what about you? are you going to hide behind "objective scientific fact" to camouflage your faith in an unseen god?
I would like to add that I also don't take offense to anything that has been said on this site. I am enjoying it and find it to be a growing experience to debate with those who agree and those who do not agree. I love hearing different perspectives, and there is a terrific spectrum of ideas here.
Order/Peace, You said,
"Are you going to hide behind "objective scientific fact" to camouflage your faith in an unseen god?"
I'm not hiding behind anything. I'm Agnostic Atheist, Until there is more proof for me, I will not practice any organized religions.
So with that said I have no "Faith in an unseen god".
I Feel free not being punished by an invisible entity for my day to day life.
I do not have to repent to a priest in a booth for what I do. When what he does is far more dark and demented
I do not have to see the preacher to let him Councel me on marriage, When he is married and has a baby with the choir girl that is "hush hush".
I do not have to pray to Allah and become a human martyr to have 42 virgins awaiting me in the afterlife either.
My question back is, Then is YOUR religion (Faith) the right one and the rest are wrong?????
I am going to jump in here to Brian and Orders conversation.
Order, I don’t think you are being very fair. Bet you are a huge believer in science most of the time, to use your own phrasing, bet you praise your unseen god of science everyday. Got you a nice iphone maybe? Use a microwave? Maybe a computer? Break a leg and I bet you trust in the invisible god of science to xray it and prevent and treat all manner of disease around the world. You just seem to have a big problem with science when instead of helping you personally it contradicts a belief of yours.
And you are “certain” that a god exists and you have a ticket to heaven? Impressive. I used to think like that a short time ago. I now embrace uncertainty and find a great freedom, joy and— if I may say so myself— humility in it.
boy - you guys sure aren't very tolerant of people unless their view agrees with your own, huh?
I'm also seeing a trend here in that all of your atheism is pretty much just a response or reaction against Christianity (and maybe Islam as an aside).
I have to admit, evans, that I'm not sure I understand your contention. My point all along is that I embrace science, scientific discovery, and technological advances because my theistic worldview sustains such innovation. Sure, you can site examples of how Christianity may have hindered the progress of science. I can give ample evidence of how Christianity has advanced it as well. In addition, even where embarrassing black eyes remain on the church (Galileo for instance) my worldview accounts for that. The church if filled with sinners, and that leads to egregious conclusions at times.
Now granted, potentially, I may have a problem with scinence IF it contradicts a belief of mine, but none of the examples you gave do so. Can you help me understand how I am being unfair?
Danzig I am certain - but not because of my own stunning intellect. Again, I humbly admit that I am certain but not because I have some keen or brilliant insights or superior knowledge...
But again, what about you? Do you look down on me for my faith, like Spong does? And aren't you simply placing your faith in empiricism; whatever science proves is canonical in the book of Danzig. I mean seriously, isn't science your god? Do you believe in "fact" and what YOU are able to determine as such? And there's no room for anything that cannot be proved to you and your sensory perception?
I am curious and would sincerely like to hear more of how you (evans) have found freedom in uncertainty.
Order/Peace,
I don't look down on you or anyone for their beliefs. All I know is right now at this moment in my life is all that is 100% certain to me. That I need to embrace it and enjoy it to the fullest. Not making excuses for a terrible life and my rewards are in heaven so to speak.
I do feel happy and free knowing this.
I was just debating and I don't take this to heart whatever someone says in disagreement. The beauty of this blog is that we can have these discussion completely anonymous.
I feel the bible should be treated as history/fiction. The reason I say fiction is because there is no proof that any of this really happened. If Jesus really cameback from the dead AND did all his miracles, It would of been recorded immediatedly. Not 200 years after the fact. To me that makes it less believable.
I need proof of an afterlife. Not a book with so many contradictions if written today would never be published for it's many flaws.
Order,
Though it may not be easily distinguished I try to always respect the person but not neccessarily the ideas held. I am tolerant of your right to believe whatever you want but am not tolerant of beliefs I think are harmful. This blog is an attempt to disect those harmful beliefs in myriad ways.
As far as my atheism being a response to Christianity in particular it is only because that is my background and we live in a predominately Christian country and world. All beliefs, whether religious or not, that are not based on evidence or not credible and are potentialy harmful.
My comment that you were being on fair was concerning my impression that you seemed to say that your belief in an idea 'the god of the bible' that there is no evidence for is no less credible than facts revealed through science. Perhaps I misunderstood you. But this is ridiculous.
Relying on empirical evidence may turn out to be a very flawed way of knowing the universe but at this time it is the best way.
As to how I find freedom in uncertainty. Not having to know anything for sure is amazingly liberating. And with liberation cames joy. Instead of having to know answers, my focus is on asking the right questions.
Simply knowing that I am giving my best effort to discern reality and how best to relate to it is enough. I can sleep soundly. I can rise refreshed and excited to learn more about everything.
There is no internal conflict over doubts about what I should or should not believe, no guilt that I am not reading a holy book or attending church enough.(Though ironically I venture to say I visit more churches and read the bible more than 90% of christians).
Perhaps most importantly, I have a space within my own skull that is completely mine. There is no fear that my thoughts are being monitored by a cosmic judge who is taking notes.
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