Test of Faith.Hosea
God told his people he would
A. surround them with love and blessings
B. attack them like a lion and tear them to pieces
God told his people he would
A. nurture their beloved children
B. kill their beloved children
God’s punishments include
A. 40 days of fasting and bible study
B. having babies heads smashed and pregnant women ripped open
Hosea 5:14, 9:15-16, 13:16
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20 comments:
The bible is so offensive to my sense of morality. Yet if I bring up these verses to a christian, I know what I will hear.
1. You have to take it in CONTEXT. I'm sorry - say what? Oh yes - there is a time and a place to rip babies apart - make sure you only do it in the proper CONTEXT.
2. That the perfect love of god is also perfectly JUST, and that without the slamming of babies heads against walls and pulling out of entrails and the like, god can not show his infinite love for us because we are so profoundly EVIL. This is why we have FORCED GOD to use some of these tactics - because we refuse to be obedient to his perfect Word.
What does a person say to this? On the one hand, it's incredible to me that anyone believes that the bible is the perfect word of god, considering the actual content of the bible.
On the other hand, the brainwashing is so complete - whenever a christian is stumped, they use the argument that we don't know god's perfect plan yet - our brains are far too small. Or we must have FAITH. Or the whole GOD IS JUST thing.
I guess today I'm feeling like there is no point in even discussing these issues with christians. Then I remember that I was once a christian, and I realize that I cannot give up. I was raised to be an evangelical; and I guess I can't stop prosthelitizing about the GOOD NEWS that the horrors of the bible are just stories!
Several things are meant by context.
The Bible, like any other book, must be read in its historical, linguistic, and literary context. That is the expectation of any piece of literature.
Meaning is misunderstood if taken out of those contexts. If I read Robert Frost and take him literally on every point, do I have reasonable grounds to call him a liar? My meaning must be derived from the context. You use the word context as though it's a bad word.
I think the point being made by Janet is that there is no “context” that justifies the wickedness attributed to the god of the bible.
Sooner, if you feel I have taken the verses in Hosiah out of context please explain how I did so. Thanks
Thanks for your responses. I would like to add that it sounds like Homesick is not a bible literalist; that you take the bible to be, in large part, symbolic or allegorical. Please let me know if I am correct on this (if this is what you mean by "context").
My experience with literalist christians is that context has to do not with whether or not the story was actually true, but the circumstances surrounding the story. I agree with John here that there is absolutely NO circumstances that, to me, would make the horrors of the bible anything less than morally reprehensible.
Beyond just the horror stories in the bible are all the other psychological baggage that belief in christianity produces. Believing that I was born a sinful being, I lived in shame and guilt most of my life; I was so grateful that Jesus had died so save such a "wretch as me". I discovered that if we hate who we are at such a deep level, if we think at base we are wicked and sinful beings, we literally hate ourselves. This is not a natural way for us to feel about ourselves. It is very destructive.
I saw an experiment with a molecule of water. When it was exposed to soft encouraging words, the molecule looked whole and beautiful. The molecule actually CHANGED when it was exposed to put-downs and verbal brutality. This is what I did to myself every day before I left the christian faith. When you think that human beings are over 90% water, I couldn't imagine the damage I did to myself all those years.
What happened to me is that I developed an auto-immune illness (not a really terrible one, for which I am grateful). But it was a wakeup call for me. I can no longer afford to think of myself as essentially flawed and sinful. My very life depends upon it. Auto-immune illnesses are when the body turns on itself; when your own immune system attacks healthy cells, mistaking them for the enemy. That is what I had been doing to myself all those years! Treating my own body like the enemy! It's no wonder my body started to believe that it literally was something evil to be destroyed!
I think we cause many mental and physical diseases from sick thinking like this. I would encourage any christian who is interested in some of the psychological damage that christianity can cause to check out Celia Murray Dunn's book Religion that Harms, Religion that Heals. She is not an atheist, and in fact, I think she considers herself a christian. But she critiques the basic beliefs of what has become christianity in north america.
Anyway, I would like to say again how wonderful it is to have a respectful debate about these issues with both those who agree with me and those who don't. Homesick, I think it's great that you challenge us. It's important for all of us not to become arrogant or set in our ways. We must always be open to changing our minds as we discover new truths.
I have recommended this website to people in my life that I care about. Welcome Brian, Sharon (aka Serno, and Lucy! They may not be commenting, but I'm sure they are reading!
Yes, welcome Brian, Sharon (aka Serno), and Lucy!
I encourage you, nay, beg you to comment. The more perspectives the better!
Hi everyone,
I would like to quickly introduce myself. I'm Brian, One of the important people in Janet's life. She's told me for a few days now about this blog. I look forward to leaving my opinions about religion.
Knowing Janet personally, I can say you have to come prepared when discussing religion! Not only is she highly intelligent, But she's passionate about it also cause of the effects it's had on her growing up.
Thanks Janet for telling me about the blog and I look forward to these discussions!
Brian
Welcome Brian! Hope you become a regular part of the conversation.
I look forward to John. Religion is truly something I face more than I would like to admit living in Atanta, Georgia! Right in the heart of the bible belt. I believe anyone who's a "thinker" must question religion.
I meant Atlanta, Georgia!
Like the page. Well done. Check mine out at
conservative-atheist.blogspot.com
Well done. Check my blog out at:
conservative-atheist.blogspot.com
Hi there Conservative Atheist. I checked out your website briefly, but clearly it deserves more than just a few minutes. I plan to spend some time reading it in greater detail.
I enjoy this site because there is a variety of views, where people debate these sensitive and critical subjects and safely reveal themselves (and I have really let it all hang out sometimes :)
I would like to say one thing - although nobody who knows me would probably label me "conservative" (my son said it as a joke once, actually), I do agree that we can't just throw out all values from the past just because they are not new. There are some things from the past I do treasure. One thing that come to mind is that we are a "throwaway" society that tends not to take good care of things; we do not value quality since most things are easily replaceable. This bothers me. Anyway, gotta run, more later!
Janet,
I read the Bible contextually. In some cases I take it very literally.
Example: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
In other cases I understand the use of figurative language.
Example: "first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."
I think the writers of the Bible make use of metaphor, simile, and all kinds of figurative language.
One question often posed to Christians is, "Do you take the Bible literally?"
That's as silly as asking someone if they read the sports page literally. In some places you do and in other places you don't. If one considers the historical and literary context, understanding literature become much easier.
This discipline is known as hermeneutics. Unfortunately most Christians are not hermeneutically sound.
I hope this answers your question about how I understand the Bible.
I hope this helps you understand how I take the Bible.
Homesick your response to Janet about how you interpret the bible sounds very familar to the way most christians take the bible. I call it (Selective Morality).
To pick and choose what you want to take to heart in the bible and what you want to kindly overlook cause it's way to disturbing.
Homesick you said, "I think the writers of the Bible make use of metaphor, simile, and all kinds of figurative language."
Let's take the story of Lot.
Genesis 19:30-38: "And Lot went up out of Zoar..., and his two daughters with him; ...and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth. Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.
And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day."
Homesick, how do you interpret that???
It sickens and disgusts me that this is even written in a book so many people take literally!
Brian,
If you are disgusted by that, stay away from the newspaper. There are some really nasty things happening in the world today.
I am really not sure what you want me to say about how I understand Genesis 19. Are you asking me if I think the story is true?
I agree Homesick there are some really nasty things in the world today.
The scariest of all is a person who can twist their religion to do harm to others. In the name of god, So to speak.
Homesick I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. I was just reponding to your reply to Janet about how you interpret the bible and how do you intepret that passage in Genesis???
Here's another:
Exodus 21:7-8: And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed:
to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her."
Reading this is it Ok to sell your Daughters according to the bible???
I just want to see your thoughts on these passages???
"Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much –and go to the land of Moriah.
Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you." (Genesis 22:1-18)
This is what God said to Abraham. He took his son to the top of the mountain. Had his son help build the alter then put a knife to his throat. Then God told him to stop that he had followed what he had told him to do. So his son lived.
Let's say today I did the same thing. I had "God" telling me to grab a young boy and go to the top of Stone Mountain. sacrifice the child in the name of God.
I would be on every news channel. Locked up and analyzed. My trial on trueTV and put away for life. Even if I stopped before doing it because God told me to stop.
Homesick can you see how this looks to our modern civilization??
Brian,
1. I am working up a response to your questions regarding Ex. 21. Give me a bit more time and I will try and respond later today.
2. As for your comment about using twisting religion to do harm to others . . . I certainly do not do that and know not one single Christian that does. I could use this same argument against a naturalist or an atheist. The common denominator is that the system isn't the problem, but man's understanding or perception of the system is the problem.
3. The story of Abe and Isaac. The first thing I would say is that God no longer speaks audibly. I think arguing by using hypothetical situations prophets very little. That passage has a very pointed meaning when read in context.
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