“Biblical Morality”
The phrase “biblical morality” is an oxymoron—absurd as the phrase “immoral morality.” That is unless one thinks it moral to beat a child with a rod, offer a child as a sacrifice or drown every child in the world; moral to stone sons to a lifeless bloody pulp, roast daughters over a raging fire or sell them as sex slaves to the horny old man down the road; moral to kill homosexuals, kill “witches” and kill one’s own family and friends who pray to the wrong god; moral to take young girls as “wives” after butchering their families and torching their homes; moral to plunder towns of all their valuables, burn books, cripple horses, commit genocide, chop off the hands and feet and heads of foes and cut fetuses out of their mother’s bellies; and moral to keep people alive beyond the grave with the sole intent of inflicting unimaginable suffering upon them forever and ever and ever...
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12 comments:
It surprises me that there are still those who would argue that without God and religious doctrine, we would all become serial killers. What's to stop us? We do not fear hell or any kind of punishment after death, so why not???
My parents, who are fundamentalist christians, are constantly surprised that their 3 daughters (my 2 sisters and I), who are all atheist (after long and painful journeys), have good morals and values. It confuses them! My parents are not the kind of fundamentalists who manipulate others for money; my dad was never like a televangelist. They really, really, believe this stuff and when something in the bible does not correspond to their beliefs they spin it like crazy. But they still think that they are moral and good people because they are christians. It is very difficult to convince christians that they would be the same people, whether christian or not! Fear of damnation or being good for reward does not change the essence of a person!
Janet, Did you and your sisters let go of the god idea about the same time? Can you elaborate on the process...did one sister influence the others, etc. What was the response by your parents, church, neighbors, and friends as your journey toward atheism progressed?
I don't know a single Christian who says that without belief in God we would all become serial killers.
Much of what you say in the first post is a fabrication of the truth. I don't know a single Christian who teaches any of those things. It's interesting that you fabricate elements of the Bible to discredit Christianity. No intellectually sound Christian thinks about the Bible the way you do. I find that interesting.
I know you hate Christianity and the Bible, but I am also beginning to think you hate Christians. Who would say things, and misrepresent Christian teachings in such an antagonistic way if truly motivated by love?
Sooner-Please be specific about how I fabricated anything. I will gladly remove anything that is not accurate. Are you denying that these acts are in the bible, either committed, commanded or condoned by your God?
I find it telling that you attack me as someone that hates Christians because I dare suggest their “holy” book which commands cutting the hands off of wives and burning daughters is immoral. Do you not find such commands immoral?
Homesick, I did not mean "serial killers" literally. What I meant was that the christians I know believe that without Christianity/Jesus/God we have NO moral compass at all. Basically, the idea is that without the commandments and external reward/punishment there is no reason for us to do good, and every reason to do bad (because there is no "hell", we can "get away with it"). This is an accurate picture of many fundamentalist christians that I know. I find this baffling, considering the fact that I find the bible itself, and it's precepts, to be an incredibly poor basis on which to build a moral code.
With regard to the rest of homesick's comment, I agree that christians do not teach these things. In fact, it seems like any moral christian would be embarrassed by these passages and try to pretend that they are not there. But the fact it: They are there. Christians who believe in love, joy and mercy (such as my dad, the pastor) has a TERRIBLE time coming up with excuses for the horrors in the bible. Especially the parts where GOOD men do things like give their daughters to be raped (Lot) or have another man killed to get his wife (King David).
Janet . . . I very much appreciate you addressing my concerns. I would disagree with you about what many fundamentalists Christians believe about ethics. I would contend that when pressed, most Christians haven't the slightest clue about what forms a solid foundation for a system of ethics. I am a Christian, and do not understand ethics in the way you described. The Christians I am around would share my view.
John, you fabricate elements of the Bible by rendering an interpretation that supports your own presuppositions.
As I said before, Christians do not teach those passages as you understand them. Haters of the Bible and haters of Christianity are the only ones who see and interpret the way you do.
I agree with you, homesick, that my view is colored by the christians that I encounter on a regular basis. Mostly, it's my family; my parents, and most of my extended family are evangelical christians. So if I say something about "christians", or generalize, this is why. I can see that maybe some of these assumptions do not apply to you if your beliefs are somewhat different. Clearly, you are a thinking person. The fact that you debate these issues on this blog proves that. As you point out, many christians would never do what you are doing here. In my view, they are too afraid that they will discover their beliefs are built on sand.
Can I also reference your comment to John? It's a chicken and egg thing, in a way. For me, I didn't start out "hating" christianity. I was a christian for most of my life. It was after I started realizing the damage it had caused me that I felt betrayed by christians and deceived by christianity. This caused me to "hate" the belief system because it see it happening over and over again, all around me, and it feels like people are blind and will not see. That is frustrating to me. I think what may sound like hate for christians is residual anger about these things.
Why do you put words in my mouth? When did I even suggest anyone taught such things? I simply listed things that are in the bible that I feel are immoral.
And I’ll ask again, do you not find such things as drowning, stoning, burning, decapitating, raping, pillaging, torturing, enslaving, and so on, immoral?
The word immoral" is just a label John.
The deconstruction of language is frustrating isn't it?
So you are just resorting to playing games rather than answer the question? Whatever.
It's the game you taught me to play. It was you that told me words are only labels, and you yourself have said evil is only an illusion.
You bring up some challenging questions. One thing I've tried to do on this blog is pick my battles wisely.
I think you distort meanings to support your own presuppositions. The question you ask is loaded.
You and I are not going to agree about how to understand some of the things you have brought up. I do think there is a reasonable answer and all I want is respect for my position. I have respect and tolerance for yours even though we disagree.
I think I read something at some point about why you don't eat chicken. Could you go over that again?
Words are symbols or signs. They point to an idea. The word “evil” points to the idea of something being especially abhorent. I never said evil is an illusion. (You must be confusing me with some guy on a mountain top in a white robe. Though i do have the right bald head for the job.)
What I have said is that “evil” does not exist as some sort of entity in itself. Evil things happen every second. Though what I may consider evil you may not and there’s the rub.
I respect you very much. I respect your desire to do what you think is right and good and noble. I respect your willingness to converse with people who call into question ideas you cherish. I respect your “calling” to teach in your church and school. I could have easily followed your path and a few short years ago I would have been in total agreement with you on many things. But I do not at all respect your beliefs themselves— I do not respect your position. But I would be willing to give my life in a fight for your right to believe what you do.
As for why I do not eat chicken, it is the same reason I do not eat any animal. I do not feel we have the right to take another’s life unnecessarily.
Our factory farms manufacture suffering and if we eat their products we are part of the problem, we are enabling evil.
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