“It took me years, but letting go of religion has been the most profound wake up of my life. I feel I now look at the world not as a child, but as an adult. I see what's bad and it’s really bad. But I also see what is beautiful, what is wonderful. And I feel so deeply appreciative that I am alive. How dare the religious use the term ‘born again.’ That truly describes freethinkers who’ve thrown off the shackles of religion so much better!”
~ Julia Sweeney
www.juliasweeney.com/letting_go_mini/
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Julia, Julia. I had no idea we had this profound experience in common! I do agree that we need to be born again though - I feel as though I have been. Through freedom from religion, I can start with a clean slate and look at everything and everyone with new lenses. I feel like truth lanced the infection that religion had created in my life, and now healing has begun. Scars remain, however, and I expect that they will always be there. I am still triggered by certain words and even visual images; even an image of the bible practically gives me post-traumatic stress / flashbacks. I don't know how long it will be before I can think of religion like people who have not been so damaged by it - I would love to eventually become indifferent to it. That would mean it no longer has any power over me. In the meantime, expressing myself like this speeds the healing process along. I guess sometimes I just feel overwhelmed that so many people are still fundamentalist christians; this US election really brought that home to me. I have a hard time letting go of it. Maybe because I come from evangelical roots (it was my role to "save" everyone - every soul not saved, within my circle, was my fault) I still feel a compulsion to "save" people from religion. Sometimes I have an almost overwhelming temptation to hand out flyers as people exit their church services on Sunday mornings ("do you have doubts? Have you been able to talk about these doubts? Have you stopped believing but continue to PRETEND to believe because your whole family or support system goes to church?"). However, this is the arrogance of religion coming out in my atheism. I have to remember that I do not know truth for everyone - that everyone is on their own unique journey, and some much come through religion to get there. I have to remember to be humble.
I too want to “save” people. I think about putting flyers on cars in church parking lots or walking in front of churches with some sort of protest sign. Would undoubtedly make for some spirited conversations. But just like the Darwin logo or other anti-religious emblem I am tempted to put on the back of my car I always come around to thinking that just isn’t the best way to reach people. I guess my cyber church of reason will do for now.
As for Julia--be sure to check out her videos-I so appreciate the grace and humor she brings to the topic of religion. Good song too-
I agree. It is so important not to push our beliefs on people. Even when we are sure we are right! That makes us just like "them", and violates my ethical code. I have spent much of my adult life trying to undo the damage that religious colonization did to to the native peoples of North America. The Europeans came and imposed their religious beliefs on the natives, and were willing to do just about ANYTHING to accomplish that. This included kidnapping Aboriginal children and putting them in Catholic and Anglican residential schools (where they were systematically tortured, overworked, starved, beaten, sexually abused - usually punishment for some heinous sin such as speaking their native language). But fortunately, they were finally able to convert the heathens. Now, many aboriginal people are religious. It constantly surprises me that they do not recognize that it was religion that created the mess they are now in (high rates of suicide, disease, addictions, family violence, etc.).
Reminds me of that saying by Desmond Tutu:
When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said "Let us pray." We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land."
This is what happened with the Aboriginal people in Canada too. I think people who are oppressed want to hope that there is justice and a better life after death.
Just some thoughts.
A couple observations:
1. If you are an atheist/naturalist you are not free from religion. You have a set of beliefs just like other religions. See the humanist manifesto I & II for just one example. I know you will both disagree, but using a simple dictionary definition atheism qualifies as a religion.
2. Absolute truth exists. Humans have the capacity to know truth. Relativism is self defeating philosophically. Absolute truth can't be denied without it being affirmed.
3. It's interesting that when a person thinks they have arrived at truth (Christian or atheist) they have an inner drive or compulsion to share that truth. I have never been one to push, but I do like to look for creative way to dialogue.
4. Everyone on their own unique journey . . . many bright and extremely intelligent people have journeyed from an atheistic understanding to a Christian theistic understanding of the world. Evidently atheism was unable to accommodate some of their biggest questions.
5. Janet, I am not sure of the details concerning your experiences but as Christian, my heart goes out to you.
Sooner,
1. what is your definition of “absolute” truth?
2. what is an example of “absolute” truth?
3. how does one know it is “absolute” truth?
1. I'm not sure of a definition . . . Let me think about a that one.
2. An example of an an absolute truth is: Absolute truth exists.
3. How does one know this is an absolute? Because I can't say it doesn't exist without using an absolute statement.
1. You get paid to mold minds and speak so confidently about “absolute” truth and yet don’t have a ready definition for it?
2. Your example is as circular as me saying Jesus rose from the dead because the bible says so.
3. I am dizzy ...
Do you have any other examples?
1. Definition: Truth that is absolute
Yeah, can you believe they'd pay an idiot like me??? ; )
There are a number of statements that I could make that are absolutely true.
Here's one: There is a cup of coffee on my desk.
I know this is simple, but it can't be true to one person and false to another. It either absolutely is or absolutely isn't.
It gets more difficult when dealing with the abstract.
Here's another: God exists.
I realize we fall on different sides of this one, but that illustrates the point well. Either he does or he doesn't, but he can't exist and not exist at the same time in the same way. That would violate the law of non contradiction.
You may be right, or I may be right, but we can't both be right because there is absolute truth about God's existence.
So you say absolute truth is “truth that is absolute”.
Not terribly helpful.
why add the word “absolute” to true? Seems to me something is true, is not true or is partially true.
A statement such as you having a cup of coffee on your desk can be true. A math equation such as 1+1=2 is true. But again why confuse those things with the word “absolute"?
And are you serious about saying “God exists” is an example of absolute truth? That’s a joke right?Because then I can say “God this, God that, God lives in red hat in my closet and she has the most dreamy invisible blue eyes” as claims of absolute truth would not need to be supported with evidence.
Bottom line, there is Reality and what we perceive of that reality. Truth is just an idea we formulate about Reality and because our perceptions are not “absolutely” perfect we can never know anything in an “absolute” way making the entire discussion of “absolute” anything rather pointless.
Are you absolutely sure of that John?
You self refute AGAIN . . . by making your case with absolute statements.
You can't deny absolute truth without affirming it.
Of course I am not absolutely sure! Would you feel better if i started every sentence with I “think, but am not sure...”? Would get a bit tiresome would it not? Much like this conversation.
An epistemology that has relativism as a foundation is doomed to fail because it self-refutes. There is just no way of getting around it.
Can we please move on from the “self-refuting” argument? You have made your position clear. I got it. No need to ever use that word again on this blog. Please don’t! I beg of you. All your future posts will be taken with the understanding that all my arguments are inherently flawed. And only macro-evolution denying theists such as yourself may make statements that are not.
I never said all your statements are flawed. Nor did I say I have a monopoly on truth.
As one who believes some truth is knowable I have a huge problem with ideas that collapse on themselves masquerading as truth. There are a number of prevalent ideas in our pluralistic culture that do this and I would appreciate the freedom to call them out as I see them.
I'm sorry if I come off as arrogant. That's not my intention at all.
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