Saturday, February 7, 2009

thought of the day.206

Think your own thoughts, make your own way!
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7 comments:

homesicksooner said...

John,

Where did you first hear about the theory of evolution?

Since you didn't develop this theory, aren't you technically not thinking your own thoughts?

Make your own way? What do you mean by this exactly?

February 7, 2009 at 9:42 PM
john evans said...

When I suggest we should think our own thoughts I am not suggesting dismissing others thoughts. I am suggesting we should question everything, accept nothing without critically examining it. We should feel free to think anything, to be fearless with our thoughts.

For me, life became truly exciting when I got off the well worn path of Christianity and made my own path toward understanding reality. That, to me, is what could be called the spiritual path. It takes a certain amount of courage to leave a path that has a known destination and make one’s own way into unknown territory but that is what makes the journey interesting and exciting.

February 7, 2009 at 11:56 PM
Janet Greene said...

Lee Salisbury is another evangelical pastor who is now an outspoken atheist (gee, they're falling like dominoes!) Here's one of his articles that might speak to the discussion here:

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Mar05/Salisbury0305.htm

The religious-right and its advocates, mainly fundamentalist clergy and their legislator-favorites believe the Genesis creation story is factually accurate, literal truth. Does science affirm this creationist view? Is a literal creationist account something a rational person accepts? Let's look at the Book of Genesis and consider a few of the many questions an honest inquirer should ask.

On the first day, God created light calling it day and darkness calling it night with a morning and an evening. There is yet no sun. Science tells us that the sun is the primary source of light in our universe. Mr. Creationist, please explain where does light come from when there is no sun? If you say the light came from God, than you acknowledge darkness came from God. Why did God create darkness when the universe was already dark? Without a sun for earth to rotate around, how could there be a morning and evening, a day and night?

On the second day, God created a firmament or expanse to divide the waters below the firmament from the waters above the firmament. God called the firmament Heaven. Mr. Creationist, of what was the firmament comprised that enabled it to overrule the force of gravity and keep the waters above from crashing down on the earth? Why hasn�t the Hubbell Space Telescope that sees 15 billion light-years into space ever detected a firmament, a heaven, or this heavenly ocean of water? Creationists say the water came down in Noah�s flood. If Noah�s flood is historically accurate, why do archaeological and geological finds show no Flood indicators in ancient settlements like the 9,000 year old Catalhoyuk in Turkey, a short distance from Mt. Ararat? If humans were just as wicked after the Flood as before the Flood, what does the Flood say about God�s omniscient wisdom?

On the third day, God gathered the waters and the land under the firmament and called them Sea and Earth. Then God created grass, herbs, fruit trees, and their respective seeds. At this point in creation there was no sun. Biology teaches that plants need photosynthesis for the sun's light energy to convert carbon dioxide and water into nutrients. If the creation days are epochs biology tells us the plants would die without the sun and photosynthesis. Mr. Creationist, if God is an intelligent designer, why didn�t God create the sun before He created the plants?

On the fourth day, God created the sun, moon, and stars in the heavens for signs, seasons, days, and years. Some suggest this was the Big Bang? Astronomers estimate the Big Bang was 15 billion years ago. Adding Luke's 4,000-year genealogical record from Adam to Jesus and the 2,000 years from Jesus to the present suggest the universe is about 6,000 years old. Mr. Creationist, how do you reconcile the huge difference of the Bible's 6,000 year age of the universe and the astronomer's 15 billion years? Astronomy seriously contradicts the Bible�s reliability.

Astronomers tell us there are billions of other galaxies in the universe each with billions and billions of stars. The Bible tells us God named every star. Is it rational to accept that the God who supposedly: 1) created days and nights without a sun; 2) created plants without the sun�s needed photosynthesis; 3) punished humanity with a Flood knowing humanity would continue in the same wickedness�created and named all those stars in a 24 hour day just 6,000 years ago?

Further, God spoke everything into being. Is there evidence for God creating through the spoken word? If God creates through the spoken word why doesn�t God speak to the earth He created and command tsunamis, hurricanes, tornadoes, and earthquakes to be still? Jesus said, "he that believes in me shall do the same works I do" Jn14:12. If Christians did as Jesus said, than we�d have evidence. The fact that there is no evidence today for either God or Christians creating through the spoken word.

Without considering the 5th and 6th days of creation in which Adam and Eve eat from a tree of knowledge and converse with talking snakes, these are a few simple questions any person with a little common sense should ask believers in a literally factual Bible. Amazingly, creationists have no rational, evidence-based answers for these questions. Even more amazing, the media sits bye and never challenges their specious answers concocted solely to justify their theological wishful thinking.

Is the public well served when clergy and legislators promote ideas defying logic and science and for which there is no better evidence for than a literal Snow White or a literal Peter Pan? Should such people be respected especially when they are in positions that frame public policy and law? You decide!

Lee Salisbury is a former evangelical preacher, founder of the Critical Thinking Club of Minnesota, and writes for www.axisoflogic.com and www.dissendentvoice.org.

Other Articles by Lee Salisbury

* Santa Claus, Jesus, and the Solstice
* Do You Condemn Gays Because the Bible Tells You So?
* History's Troubling Silence About Jesus
* Any Ole God Will Do

February 8, 2009 at 3:29 AM
Janet Greene said...

Lee Salisbury is another evangelical pastor who is now an outspoken atheist (gee, they're falling like dominoes!) Here's one of his articles that might speak to the discussion here:

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Mar05/Salisbury0305.htm

The religious-right and its advocates, mainly fundamentalist clergy and their legislator-favorites believe the Genesis creation story is factually accurate, literal truth. Does science affirm this creationist view? Is a literal creationist account something a rational person accepts? Let's look at the Book of Genesis and consider a few of the many questions an honest inquirer should ask.

On the first day, God created light calling it day and darkness calling it night with a morning and an evening. There is yet no sun. Science tells us that the sun is the primary source of light in our universe. Mr. Creationist, please explain where does light come from when there is no sun? If you say the light came from God, than you acknowledge darkness came from God. Why did God create darkness when the universe was already dark? Without a sun for earth to rotate around, how could there be a morning and evening, a day and night?

On the second day, God created a firmament or expanse to divide the waters below the firmament from the waters above the firmament. God called the firmament Heaven. Mr. Creationist, of what was the firmament comprised that enabled it to overrule the force of gravity and keep the waters above from crashing down on the earth? Why hasn�t the Hubbell Space Telescope that sees 15 billion light-years into space ever detected a firmament, a heaven, or this heavenly ocean of water? Creationists say the water came down in Noah�s flood. If Noah�s flood is historically accurate, why do archaeological and geological finds show no Flood indicators in ancient settlements like the 9,000 year old Catalhoyuk in Turkey, a short distance from Mt. Ararat? If humans were just as wicked after the Flood as before the Flood, what does the Flood say about God�s omniscient wisdom?

On the third day, God gathered the waters and the land under the firmament and called them Sea and Earth. Then God created grass, herbs, fruit trees, and their respective seeds. At this point in creation there was no sun. Biology teaches that plants need photosynthesis for the sun's light energy to convert carbon dioxide and water into nutrients. If the creation days are epochs biology tells us the plants would die without the sun and photosynthesis. Mr. Creationist, if God is an intelligent designer, why didn�t God create the sun before He created the plants?

On the fourth day, God created the sun, moon, and stars in the heavens for signs, seasons, days, and years. Some suggest this was the Big Bang? Astronomers estimate the Big Bang was 15 billion years ago. Adding Luke's 4,000-year genealogical record from Adam to Jesus and the 2,000 years from Jesus to the present suggest the universe is about 6,000 years old. Mr. Creationist, how do you reconcile the huge difference of the Bible's 6,000 year age of the universe and the astronomer's 15 billion years? Astronomy seriously contradicts the Bible�s reliability.

Astronomers tell us there are billions of other galaxies in the universe each with billions and billions of stars. The Bible tells us God named every star. Is it rational to accept that the God who supposedly: 1) created days and nights without a sun; 2) created plants without the sun�s needed photosynthesis; 3) punished humanity with a Flood knowing humanity would continue in the same wickedness�created and named all those stars in a 24 hour day just 6,000 years ago?

Further, God spoke everything into being. Is there evidence for God creating through the spoken word? If God creates through the spoken word why doesn�t God speak to the earth He created and command tsunamis, hurricanes, tornadoes, and earthquakes to be still? Jesus said, "he that believes in me shall do the same works I do" Jn14:12. If Christians did as Jesus said, than we�d have evidence. The fact that there is no evidence today for either God or Christians creating through the spoken word.

Without considering the 5th and 6th days of creation in which Adam and Eve eat from a tree of knowledge and converse with talking snakes, these are a few simple questions any person with a little common sense should ask believers in a literally factual Bible. Amazingly, creationists have no rational, evidence-based answers for these questions. Even more amazing, the media sits bye and never challenges their specious answers concocted solely to justify their theological wishful thinking.

Is the public well served when clergy and legislators promote ideas defying logic and science and for which there is no better evidence for than a literal Snow White or a literal Peter Pan? Should such people be respected especially when they are in positions that frame public policy and law? You decide!

Lee Salisbury is a former evangelical preacher, founder of the Critical Thinking Club of Minnesota, and writes for www.axisoflogic.com and www.dissendentvoice.org.

Other Articles by Lee Salisbury

* Santa Claus, Jesus, and the Solstice
* Do You Condemn Gays Because the Bible Tells You So?
* History's Troubling Silence About Jesus
* Any Ole God Will Do

February 8, 2009 at 3:40 AM
homesicksooner said...

John,

Questioning everything is silly. There are some things we should never question. I know it sounds good in theory, but it would be a meaningless waste of time to question everything.

The whole notion of questioning everything is self-refuting anyway.

February 8, 2009 at 8:23 PM
Janet Greene said...

Homesick - hi there! Haven't heard from you for a while. I u know you posted to John, but you seem to like the "self-refuting" argument. Instead of actually making a case, you simply say something is "self-refuting". I think you are reacting to a serious conversation with a silly answer. We should not maybe question why a certain Australian beetle kills its mate, or other things peripheral to our lives. But it is essential that we question the basic and central forces and assumptions about life. The answer you gave was beneath you. The gist of this is "self-explanatory"!! We should not accept what we are told when it clearly defies common sense. We require some kind of rational basis for belief in EVERY OTHER PART OF LIFE (we want our medication to be tested, we want to make sure airplanes are tested by qualified engineers, etc.) but when it comes to the most basic beliefs we throw out reason and common sense, and for some reason accept notions such as virgin birth, the divinity of christ, miracles, the second coming, etc. These things clearly defy reason and common sense. And I think there are many christians who, deep down, know this. But once you are committed to a christian life, with christian wife, friends, place in the church, etc., it's hard to reject all that. I don't know what your reasons are, but as always I respect that you continue to defend your position on this blog.

February 8, 2009 at 9:21 PM
john evans said...

The point is not to go through the process of literally questioning everything all the time. You are right in saying this would be absurd as that is all we would do all day. The point is that nothing should be accepted without question. The more important the notion being accepted, the more critically is should be questioned.

1. Curious to know, what things do you think we should “never question”?

2. And how exactly is it “self-refuting” to suggest we should question everything? When it is suggested we question everything it means even questioning the wisdom of questioning everything so in no way is it self-refuting.

February 8, 2009 at 9:24 PM

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